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7:24 pm - November 21st, 2008
No offense, but posts like this, an emotional outburst - however deeply felt - laced with profanity, will not win LGF2 any converts.
7:38 pm - November 21st, 2008
Well, I’ll edit it all out…
7:51 pm - November 21st, 2008
Ok, there ya go
7:53 pm - November 21st, 2008
I voted for Bob Barr so my conscience is clear. Also McCain supportes Free Trade which has destroyed American jobs. McCain also wanted more Islamic Immigration to America.
7:55 pm - November 21st, 2008
I ranted on Mc during the primary.
Once he got the nod, my only comfort was he wasn’t B-HO.
The GOP has really got to restrict the primaries to GOP voters, and not allow the donks to select our candidate for us.
7:59 pm - November 21st, 2008
no2liberals,
True very true.
7:59 pm - November 21st, 2008
McCain is your typical do-nothing Democrat suckup. What the hell did it get our side? Nothing!
And picking Sarah Palin had to have been the worst mistake his candidacy did. I didn’t see any vetting of her at all. Tim Pawlenty should have been the veep nominee.
7:59 pm - November 21st, 2008
John McCain also supported the KLA against the Serbs.
http://salibiyyah.blogspot.com/2008/02/mccain-armed-kosovo-terrorists.html
The KLA - The Kosovo Liberation Army - is an Islamic terrorist group responsible for beheadings, torture, rape, burning down churches filled with Christians, and other atrocities. To this day, the KLA insurgency continues the systematic persecution and genocidal cleansing of Serbian civilians residing in Albania. The former leaders, enjoying life as high paid politicians in the Albania Government, are unapologetic for the crimes committed.
John McCain helped arm them.
8:01 pm - November 21st, 2008
Edit all you want, but it still shows where your loyalties lie, and they’re obviously not in the best interests of this country.
McCain wasn’t on my list of choices either, but I think he’d still make a better POTUS than Obama hands down.
8:03 pm - November 21st, 2008
Well, we are stuck with Obama. Fight the good fight no matter what.
8:04 pm - November 21st, 2008
Too bad whoever made the video couldn’t even spell the name of the ship right. USS Forestal???? Give me a f*cking break.
8:07 pm - November 21st, 2008
No doubt joe. I wonder where these people come from.
It’s damn good footage though.
8:18 pm - November 21st, 2008
C’mon, McCain is not “as liberal as they come.” He has quite a good ranking according to conservative measures. Obama, however, is arguably as liberal as they come. However, McCain’s “maverick” status comes partly at the cost of conservatism: e.g., McCain/Feingold and partly not (Iraq). He is wretched on immigration and so-so to below so-so on Islam. He probably would have reduced the role of the UN in US foreign policy, which would have been great. Palin was probably the only VP choice that would have resulted in a net positive, as she reinforced turnout among the base (probably–the data are not in yet). McCain was one of two candidates (the other being Giuliani) who had some potential claim to crossover voters. Given predictions a year back, the Reps should have been completely destroyed in the presidential race. The usual indicators pointed in the same direction throughout the campaign. If Wall Street hadn’t tanked shortly before the election, the result probably would have been different.
The real problem remained with the legislature, where Republicans have been deeply arrogant and negligent, and with Bush, who was a massively big spender in areas other than defense, who never found a spending bill he wouldn’t pass, and who failed to do anything with Iran or N. Korea. McCain erred mainly in not reversing himself on public funding, just as Obama did.
8:19 pm - November 21st, 2008
To contemplete Obama as commander-in-chief was a nightmare scenario for me.
For that reason I became an enthusiastic supporter of McCain in the general.
8:34 pm - November 21st, 2008
DJM,
Yes McCain supported Islamic Terror against the Serbs. That was another reason I was against him.
9:59 pm - November 21st, 2008
I ranted on Mc on 12 Jan 07, then again on 9 Feb 08.
After that, I just went after B-HO.
I do disagree with the notion that Super Sarah was a bad choice for VP. She energized the conservative base, and prevented Mc’s trouncing from being even worse.
B-HO only got about two million more votes than John Effing Kerry did in ‘04, but Mc got about five million fewer votes than W did in ‘04. The difference was, conservatives didn’t vote, because they didn’t have a candidate.
I mean, the donks won Dallas County, for cripes sake! That could only happen if conservatives don’t vote.
10:14 pm - November 21st, 2008
I guess as no one on this thread has mentioned the elephant in the room, I will have assume the role of military buff to be the one to defend John McCain.
savagenation, I am sorry that even you have been victimized by this libel. I’m not attacking you here - just defending McCain’s honor. Yes, I heard this same fantastic lie, made of whole cloth, from many people during the campaign. If it were true, yes, I’d be as upset at McCain as you.
However, there is NO truth to it, and it is a damnable smear.
I speak from a position of being a lifelong Naval aviation buff since age 8, and have read reams of historical info during my life specifically of the Forrestal fire.
There is no, and never has been, any evidence McCain wet-started his jet.
But let’s just say he did. There are two insurmountable problems with connecting the fire to McCain:
1. The F-4 Phantom that accidentally fired the Zuni missile was parked at the extreme starboard-aft slot on the flight deck, nose angled inward toward the bow, pointing to approximately the 10 o’clock position. McCain’s A-4 Skyhawk was chocked in the #3 or #4 port-aft slot, nose pointing directly at the island, or about 2 o’clock. Had McCain shot a ball of fuel out of his tailpipe (which has never been alleged anywhere in the historical record - only in the libelous heat of a political campaign), it may have fried a gull on the port side of the ship. As it would have shot out over nothing but open ocean, there is no way, no how, that any flame from his Skyhawk could have ever touched or even come near another jet on the port side, much less anything to the starboard.
2. An EXHAUSTIVE Naval inquiry was able to clearly establish that the fire was the fault of the flight-deck crew. As the cause was so clear, not even the blamed deck crew have contested it. What happened is that there was a removable arming safety in place on each jet, specifically to prevent missiles from accidentally firing. This safety was to be removed only at the last minute, right before the jet was launched. However, the deck crew, in an attempt to launch strikes in a shorter time, began taking a fatal short-cut; they began removing the safety while the jets were still grouped all together. This meant that the missiles were armed. This cut corner finally caused the catastrophe. When the pilot of the F-4 in question flipped the switch to change the jet’s power source from the carrier electrical system to the jet’s internal system, the defective switch threw a power surge to the missile system, and this launched the missile that flew across the deck, hit McCain’s fuel tank, and started the fire. The evidence on all this was exhaustively checked at the time of the inquiry. If there had been some sort of cover-up to protect McCain back in 1967, the folks who lost their careers over it would have come forward long ago, certainly in the 2000 election. Bush’s people, having already stooped to telling South Carolina voters that McCain had a “black baby,” would have had no problem running with this in 2000.
All the rumors that McCain started the fire were designed by Obama supporters to further the “erratic” meme, and have served to libel a man who has given much for his country.
Interesting how the SOBs who started this rumor never saw fit to mention that seconds before he was blown through the air by an exploding bomb, McCain was seen by many witnesses actually running TOWARD the fire, to help a fellow airman who was burning alive.
I do disagree with McCain on many issues. However, anytime I see this awful smear repeated, I do step forward to counter it. Not just on this blog, so I’m not picking on anyone here. Just speaking truth.
Hope I won’t get banned for this.
10:19 pm - November 21st, 2008
cane_loader…
Banned for this? Oh, hell no! You made some points I really didn’t know. I hope you don’t think I’m an idiot.
I’m just so pissed at McCain’s lousy campaign. He could have done a LOT better against Barry. Put across a real platform, not react blindly to everything the Democrats threw at him. I don’t remember Ronald Reagan running a campaign the way John did.
10:25 pm - November 21st, 2008
savage nation,
I know I’d better make this crystal clear: I am not trying to cast any aspersions on your father. And I honor his lengthy service to our nation!
What I am saying is that unless some previously suppressed facts happened to have just come up now after 41 years, and I have not yet seen any believable evidence myself, the voluminous record is clear about McCain not possibly having ignited this fire.
I would not be surprised if some of the Forrestal crew, having just been through hell, heard scuttlebutt that McCain had wet-started his plane. This would be understandable, as there was a large pool of fuel and fire around McCain’s jet after his fuel tank was punctured. As we all know, stressful situations lend themselves to fear, anger, and inaccuracy.
Unless you are saying that your father had direct knowledge that this had happened (and for this to be so, the entire inquiry would have had to be based upon a grossly falsified chart of the jets’ chock positions), what I’m thinking is that the pool of fire around McCain’s jet, combined with his reputation as a hot dog, could easily have started a false rumor in the fleet that your father heard. Sort of like 9/11 was an inside job, so to speak.
Again, savagenation, nothing but respect to your father, and I hope you’ll understand that I’m addressing this issue alone, and not making any personal attack on you!
-Cheers
10:29 pm - November 21st, 2008
cane loader,
I concur with your account of events.
I knew a guy on the Forrestal, he was one of my best friends older brother, and when he came home on leave, he told us what happened. We often joked that Mc had been shot down twice, once before he even launched.
I haven’t looked at this particular video, but I have seen others that did show the missile strike, Mc climbing out and to the front of the bird, and then running towards the fire, to try and save others.
Thank you for looking past our anger or disappointment in his campaign, in putting his service in focus.
I have never doubted that aspect of his life.
10:32 pm - November 21st, 2008
savage,
Glad I didn’t insult you! Glad you have a thick skin.
I guess what really gets me is that I have have this same discussion with SO many people in the last year.
The first time I saw this, it BLEW MY MIND, as it was so patently impossible. I study everything to do with our battleships and carriers, and couldn’t believe it. When I was 8, I was reading Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo, while my classmates were playing “Kill the Man With the Ball.” How cool is it that we used a carrier to launch medium land-based bombers?? Maybe this is the source of my fascination with all things carrier.
And each time I have seen it on a discussion board, I have been the only one who has closely studied the fire, and the only one to point out that the position of the jets alone makes an alleged wet-start ignition scenario physically impossible.
Our damned media never once mentioned McCain being blown 20 feet through the air trying to save a dying man.
And the media never debunked this rumor, though I heard it from nearly every friend who voted Obama.
Guess I have to soldier on. Damn near makes me think the country is lost when a rumor like this gains traction and isn’t rebutted.
Again, thanks for not banning me!
10:35 pm - November 21st, 2008
no2liberals, Thank youfor your personal account. This is the kind of thing that is being lost today.
Has anyone ever considered that as we watch everyone 30 and under disappear into an insular world of texting and iPods and Facebook, that society is losing the function of passing down stories?
Who listens to old men’s stories anymore?
I certainly do, as this is how we learn what not to try again.
(Are you listening, Barack?)
10:35 pm - November 21st, 2008
cane,
Dad wasn’t on the Forrestal, he served on the Kitty Hawk, the Connie and the Coral Sea. But a few men he knew were on the Forrestal and the Oriskany. He heard stories from time to time about the inferno.
If my father were alive today, I think he would have hit the ceiling over this. I know he despised John McCain. He spent 28 years in the USN, retired as a Commander. He actually got a invitation to the Naval War College but he came down with Meniere’s Disease 2 weeks before he was supposed to go. He also had a Captaincy in the bag also.
Thank you for your respect to my father. I’m gonna take Mom out to his gravesite at Riverside National Cemetery on Thanksgiving Day.
10:38 pm - November 21st, 2008
Now I’m wondering how many people didn’t vote for McCain specifically because of the Forrestal rumor? I certainly heard it from my best friend, an Obama voter who said he “used to respect McCain, but his judgment is bad - he crashed his planes and lit his carrier on fire!”
I would certainly sign up to bring to justice whoever started this rumor - because it seems to be an INTENTIONAL smear - that probably cost McCain votes across the country.
Can anyone determine the earliest appearance of this smear?
I remember seeing at about 7-9 months ago, IIRC
10:40 pm - November 21st, 2008
savage,
Your dad served on some great ships! I ran into an elderly gent the other day who served on the Coral Sea in ‘61-’63. Well, I would have loved to met your dad.
It’s a really nice thing that you are able to be near enough to your mother that you can go to Riverside Cemetery together. That will mean the world to you both, I know.
God bless!
10:42 pm - November 21st, 2008
cane loader,
Tiz a shame. I always loved sitting and listening to older folks tell their stories.
Seeing as I am a curmudgeon in training, I have a few to tell, myownself.
KittyHawk?
Coral Sea?
Hee-Hee, I arrested swabbies and jarheads off of all those ships, when they came to Angeles City, and got schtoopid.
10:42 pm - November 21st, 2008
cane,
I ran into an elderly gent the other day who served on the Coral Sea in ‘61-’63
Hang on, Dad was on the Coral Sea in ‘62. I wonder if he knew that guy.
10:44 pm - November 21st, 2008
n2l,
you badass! LOL
10:45 pm - November 21st, 2008
savage,
God Bless your Dad.
I honor his service and his memory.
I’m happy for you, that you can be with your Mom on thursday, and pay your respects to your Dad.
10:47 pm - November 21st, 2008
Just be glad I was gone from Town Patrol when you decided to show up on Field Street.
10:50 pm - November 21st, 2008
Oh no! Not Field Street! eek!
I actually was never much of a drinker, even when I turned 21. Liquor really is nauseating to me.
10:52 pm - November 21st, 2008
no2libs,
I just hope Mom won’t fall apart out there. I left that idiot of a wife back in Nebraska and moved back into Mom’s house to keep an eye on her.
10:53 pm - November 21st, 2008
no2liberals,
Link doesn’t work for me, but I assume that’s a photo of you adding drunk and disorderly to some swabbie’s hangover? Bet you saw some blotto kids! Hope you had help
savage,
Maybe he did know your dad. Small world! I didn’t get the fellow’s name - just saw his cap when he was outside of CVS and started talking. He was a bit hard of hearing! Engine room?
10:56 pm - November 21st, 2008
Sorry, but it isn’t free trade that’s destroyed American jobs; it’s excessive regulation by state governments at the behest of unions.
Here in Tennessee, the auto industry is booming. We have business-friendly policies and no unions.
10:59 pm - November 21st, 2008
I voted for McCain only based upon this reasoning. Atleast conservatives would have gotten a fair shake & a avenue into the Whitehouse & Administration that we will never get with BHO. But McCain was far from my first choice…I would have taken Hunter, Tancredo, Keyes, Huckabee, even Romney or Giuliani any day instead.
Hunter, Tancredo were my first choices along with Keyes. But Romney and Giuliani I think would have been so strong against Islamic terrorism I could stomach them in the Whitehouse. Giuliani even called emphasized the point by talking direction about calling it by name…ISLAMIC TERRORISM.
11:05 pm - November 21st, 2008
cane,
Dad was a comm officer. But his stateroom was directly across from the steam catapult. Didn’t get much sleep, that’s for sure.
11:12 pm - November 21st, 2008
savagenation, On the cable show, “Carrier,” they had the camera in a stateroom directly under the catapult. Unbelievable. I know I would have not been able to tolerate this. Though I guess one gets used to it? Guess you dad had to
11:14 pm - November 21st, 2008
revparadigm,
Giuliani was my first pick precisely because he was a decisive leader, unafraid to play smash-mouth.
What a disappointment! I seriously think he would have cleaned Obama’s clock. You know if you think about it, ever since GHWB in ‘88, the candidate who ran the nastiest campaign won. you don’t think Rudy would have had Obama for lunch? Would have been epic.
11:18 pm - November 21st, 2008
AC Hall,
How about splitting the difference? Blame both free trade AND government (if that isn’t too contradictory for you!)
Unfettered capitalism + incompetent, greedy government
Some free trade is good, but I believe in certain limits. As in there should be a moderate foreign-labor tax. Companies that shift jobs offshore to profit from the sweat of 3rd-world laborers (read “Chinese”) should pay a tax for selling out American workers. Channel this revenue into vo-tech schools to improve the quality of the American workforce. Not a ruinous tax - enough to make the point, and fund the improvement of our domestic worker.
12:48 am - November 22nd, 2008
I agree with no2liberals in post #5.
I didn’t vote in this election - this has been a bad and busy year for me, personal problems, etc.
I didn’t like either McCain or Obama, but if I had voted, I would’ve voted for McCain since he was the ‘cleanest dirty shirt in the laundry hamper.’
I think Palin is more of a conservative than McCain is; I thought she was okay.
6:10 am - November 22nd, 2008
Mc Cain was the lesser of two evil for me. I do not feel safe with Obama as president. I think I would stay in the USA if McCain was elected. http://avideditor.wordpress.com/2008/11/02/obama-will-kill-all-the-jews-he-will-be-worse-then-hitler-or-stalin/
8:47 am - November 22nd, 2008
Yeah cane_loader Giuliani was AWESOME at the Republican national convention. He made BHO look exactly like what he really is…a empty suit classic extreme left wing libtard with zero experience.
9:00 am - November 22nd, 2008
I will make this brief. When you put Obama and McCain next to eachother with 2 columns going downward listing cases of “bad judgments” there was no comparison, and hence I beleive McCain would been the more competent President.
We shall see…
In the meantime I will bite my nails, gird my loins and guard my coins!!
9:06 am - November 22nd, 2008
cane_loader,
I agree. Free trade is ok provided the government puts some kind of tax to equal the playing field. I also believe compnaies that outsource good paying jobs should be taxed at a higher level than those that create jobs in AMerica. This is the problem with the Country Club Republican mindset. They don’t get it.
12:19 pm - November 22nd, 2008
RE: Post #39 by cane_loader
Taxes would have to rise to punitive levels in order to compensate for the disparity between the expense of hiring an American skilled laborer instead of a skilled Chinese laborer.
Such a tax would have a few consequences, such as corporations that use foreign labor simply moving their HQ’s to the Cayman Islands.
As The Economist put it (back during the primaries when they still supported free trade), John Edwards’s solution to the problem of little girls whose families can’t afford winter coats is to raise taxes on companies that make and sell cheap winter coats.
Furthermore, there is no need for an auto factory worker that has closed down in Michigan to receive vocational education for a new career. He can just move to a state whose governments policies don’t punish auto makers and do the same job as before.
Also, companies that outsource don’t just increase their own profits; they decrease costs to the consumer. Trade isn’t a zero-sum game. A company’s management doesn’t think, if something sells for $15/unit and costs $10/unit to make in America or $5/unit to make in China, we can double profits if we make stuff in China. Instead they can decrease their sales prices to $10/unit and more people in the US will be able to afford it, so the company will make more money, and American money buys more.
Regarding one of the specific free trade agreements currently before the US Congress (which John McCain backed and Barack Obama opposes), that with Colombia (the others being Panama and South Korea).
Presently, Colombia has a tariff on American imports and the US congress must decide annuallty whether or not to provide Colombia with MFN status (we haven’t had a tariff on Colombian imports in years). Thus, their benefit from signing the agreement (in addition to just closer relations with the US) is that they no longer have to worry about US markets being closed to their goods in the future. The benefit to the US, however, is that US made goods will be more affordable to Colombians. Thus we will sell more there. As demand rises, US companies will be able to employee MORE workers, not less.